Comments, Feedback, & Suggestions

Based on your post, I'd say you have wisdom before your years. Smile.

You're right: A delusion is only a delusion if the belief is false or has an extremely low probably of occurrence, which is why I wrote "falsely believes." If I was living and working in Russia and a national came to see me and told me that he was being watched by the police, I wouldn't necessarily think, right off the bat, that he was delusional.

Hi Greg,

You wrote:

I don't think you are being hypercritical or dismissive of me, at all. My concern is that, without meaning to, you are possibly being dismissive of those who find themselves in very unsatisfying relationships with very difficult women, suggesting that the real problem lies, instead, with incorrect attributions on the part of foreign men as a result of cultural insensitivity or naivete.

I'm not sure why, but somehow I have not adequately communicated my real point, which is that western boyfriends or husbands—and foreign people in general—need to ask people from the host country what the meaning of their behavior is, including those behaviors which the foreigner assumes must be intended as rude, malicious, or must spring from narcissism or other maladies.

My point is *not* that there is no intended or even unintended abuse in the relationships described in this forum; there may in fact be terrible abuse. What I'm trying to convey is that until you ask why something—including something you detest—is being done, you will not know what possible personal or cultural factors are involved. The motivation may in fact be to control or dominate you, it may involve narcissism, or there may be another reasons which you could not imagine until you asked.

I'm repeating this point ad nauseum because none of the responses have engaged with this simple suggestion.

Best, Eric

What I'm trying to convey is that until you ask why something—including something you detest—is being done, you will not know what possible personal or cultural factors are involved. The motivation may in fact be to control or dominate you, it may involve narcissism, or there may be another reasons which you could not imagine until you asked.

I'm repeating this point ad nauseum because none of the responses have engaged with this simple suggestion.

I didn't specifically address that point because I assumed that anyone who has taken the time to post a question on this forum had also taken the time to first discuss the interpersonal conflict with the person involved. If in fact that is not the case then, yes, you are entirely correct: It is imperative that one discuss whatever problem in communication exists (further assuming that this is what it is) with the people involved, and that would be true of not only any miscommunication in China but elsewhere.

... western boyfriends or husbands—and foreign people in general—need to ask people from the host country what the meaning of their behavior is, including those behaviors which the foreigner assumes must be intended as rude, malicious, or must spring from narcissism or other maladies.

I also assumed it was understood that all information contained in our Guide and our responses on this forum are the result of years of research and investigation from sources originating from the host country. As explained in the preface, every word in the Guide has been checked and verified for sociocultural, historical, and political accuracy by not one but two Chinese colleagues, and that includes the eight chapters on Dating, Sex, and Relationships. If you peruse the Guide's references you will find that the majority of them are from Chinese sources. All the information contained in the Guide and on this forum should be understood as having been informed by the host country itself.

If your point is that this information would have more validity or somehow be more useful if it came directly (as opposed to indirectly) from a Chinese academician, then we will have to agree to disagree because the very same point could be raised from the other end: namely, it would be better for Chinese academicians who seek to advise Chinese about the same topics to refrain from doing so and, instead, advise their audience to speak directly with any foreigners in China they may be having difficulties with. While speaking directly with lay nationals from the foreign countries in question is imperative, doing so doesn't necessarily replace or obviate any of the points they may have made, particularly if that information was well researched and the sources were predominantly from Western authorities.

Certainly, I don't think you (or any other intelligent person) would endorse the idea that only Chinese textbooks that have been translated into English should be assigned in Western schools and universities for teaching Chinese history, culture, and communication. Despite this, I occasionally come under fire for those eight chapters on Dating, Sex, and Relationships almost exclusively from Western men married to Chinese women who feel a strong need to defend their own marriages and wives from some of--what could be perceived as, especially if read out of context--the less flattering points. The fact that this information has been derived primarily from Chinese sources and ongoing research collaborated on by a female Chinese psychologist (Dr. Zeng Hong) gets lost or ignored. Interestingly enough, the strongest supporters of those eight chapters are Chinese-American and Chinese women, who have referred to them as "empowering."

Pathological narcissism is in fact over-represented among female Chinese nationals for numerous reasons that are clearly and painstakingly enumerated throughout those eight chapters, when applying the criteria established by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Fourth Edition. That doesn't mean that every woman in China is a pathological narcissist or that, conversely and in most cases, one can argue a misdiagnosis if and when differences in cultural patterns of communication are taken into account. All this statement means is that you will find a higher per capita percentage of narcissistic traits and pathology in China than in, for example, the United States or England. For the record, it certainly does not mean that every Western man in China who is married to a Chinese national has a pathological narcissist for a wife.

As mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, one of the main reasons the Guide was written was to inform Westerners about not only what they can expect to encounter when in China but why. The hope is that the more knowledge one has about a foreign culture before living and working in that culture, the more success one will have in regard to adjusting to culture shock and negotiating inevitable problems in communication. At no point have we ever written or even suggested that foreigners who find themselves in difficult relationships--whether those be with partners, coworkers, or employers--shouldn't discuss and explore those problems directly with the people involved.

If I may digress for a moment with a related but somewhat different point, I recently purchased and just finished reading a relatively new book about China titled The Britannica Guide to Modern China. I thought the book was essentially a waste of my money and time because, in true encyclopedic fashion, it is completely devoid of any interpretation or editorialization. There isn't one piece of information offered in this text that one can't find on a dozen different websites, including the Encyclopedia Britannica itself. I am not an expert on China's modern history, although I have a generally good idea about dates and events, so when I read a textbook on the subject what I am really looking for is an analytical interpretation of those events that might shed some light on not just what happened, but why those events unfolded in the way they did. A perfect illustration of what I am referring to can be found in the definitive biography of Chiang Kai-shek authored by British academician Bruce Crozier: The Man Who Lost China: The First Full Biography of Chiang Kai-shek. While the book is as factual as it can be, Crozier also goes through the trouble of offering well-informed explanations for why certain events developed in the manner that they did.

Certainly these explanations are based on interpretation and are subject to debate. I'm sure that there are many Chinese academicians, especially if they are Party members, who would take great exception to Crozier's interpretations. It's not the absence of possible bias that necessarily makes information useful or helpful (as painfully evidenced in Britannica's book on modern China) but full disclosure of possible sources of bias so that the reader can make an informed decision about the source and the subsequent veracity of the information.

Thanks so much for all your interest and valuable contributions.

Eric:

I would like to ask you this: what is your opinion on the 'bride fee' in China? I've heard three different views on this: it's traditional (meaning if I must pay, then it's traditional, if YOU must pay, then it's passe); it's a way for the family to recoup the costs of raising a daughter, or; it's traditional (in sense of a dowry).

I ask this because I've been faced with two of the three aforementioned scenarios and the price has been anywhere from 10K RMB to...get this, 90K RMB.

Traditionally, you are supposed to be paying for a VIRGIN, the woman is supposed to BRING SOMETHING OF VALUE to the marriage and, in some cases, as I'm told, the fee is reimbursed once you have a child.

What do your anthropological studies tell you of this?

As something of a postscript to this discussion, I thought it would be highly illuminating to add the comments of an anonymous reader I just received this morning in his Reader Survey Questionnaire. He indicated that he is a 29-year old American with a doctoral level education currently living and working in China in a capacity other than as a teacher.

He didn't care for the Guide at all. Why? He felt that my discussion of Chinese women was far too "charitable" to be of any real value. In fact, he goes as far as to chastise me for failing to "injunct young Western men from these East Asian harridans."

In response to the question "Could you please tell us specifically what information you thought was not entirely useful or up-to-date," which he rated 2 out of 5, he writes in great length:

Unhappy Reader wrote:Sections on Chinese women. They are more of exploitative harridans than you currently, overly charitably, make them out to be.

With the 'rise' of China, the north East-Asian countries - China, Japan, Korea - has now resurrected their historical sense of superiority to the 'barbarians'; this is particularly so in the last two years when the West, especially the U.S., remains mired in problems while the East, China in particular, remains stable, grows from strength to strength.

There is now talk of 'the China model', the Eastern way of doing things; implicit but usually unexpressed in all this is that their way is superior to the Western way. North East Asia have had historical feelings of superiority over the seaborne 'barbarians' for millenia. Defeat and subjugation had put paid to this for a century or more. Present success had released these traditional attitudes. This feeling in the region, in East Asian society had definitely permeated down to male/female relationships in East Asia.

East Asian women now give vent, more unrestrainedly than before to their expositions, diatribes even, of Western men and the West. East Asian women had always been exploitative, manipulative (you know this full well); add now to this historical chauvinism.

DO warn younger Western men of this.

DO ask them not to seek allegedly 'greener pastures' in China or East Asia.

DO pour cold water on their, in truth, illusions.

DO strip away their misconceptions, presently rampant, about 'sweet, kindly, good-wives' Chinese and East Asian women.

These are even more misconceptions than in the past. 'There is gold in them thar fields' apply more to the sweet, culturally-coincident females of California and the West generally. Things change, and people, communities change with them. China and East Asia have now changed. They have shed their erstwhile attitudes. Similarly, we should shed our erstwhile illusions.

DO, please, injunct young Western men from these East Asian harridans.

In response to the second question "Could you please tell us specifically what information you were looking for that was not entirely easy to find," which he rated 1 out of 5, he wrote:

Unhappy Reader wrote:The TRUTH, raw, unvarnished about East Asian harridans.

Do the kind of work I am doing long enough and you will soon learn that there is a great deal of truth to the idiom One man's meat is another man's poison.

In light of this very recent castigation (for being overly charitable in regard to Chinese women and failing to adequately warn Western men about them), when considered in the context of all the other diametrically-opposed as well as extremely complimentary responses I have received, I've come to realize that those eight chapters on Dating, Sex, and Relationships are something of a Rorschach Test.

Obviously, the following reader reactions to them cannot all be correct: "sexist, racist, misinformed, academically biased, 'poorly documented', angry, bitter, demeaning, 'spot on', 'beautifully documented', 'empowering, enlightening, 'eye-opening', extremely educational" or, as of late, "overly charitable." It appears that what people read into them is an indication of their gender, nationality, early childhood experiences with female caregivers, experience with Asian women (if any), mental status, and current life situation.

I'm quite certain that any Western man who feels he was "burned" by a Chinese woman will wholeheartedly echo and support this reader's reactions. I am just as certain that anyone who is currently happily married to a Chinese woman will dismiss this reader's response out of hand as nothing more than a rant and--if, for whatever reason, he is personally offended by those chapters--will delude himself into believing that this material was motivated by some sort of disingenuous hidden agenda or personal axe to grind.

Of course, the current respondent believes I was far too politically correct and restrained in my handling of this subject matter for it to be of any real value.

The reality is all that was intended by those nine chapters was a relatively well-documented account of Dating, Sex, and Relationships in China--for those unfamiliar with China and Chinese women--as informed by ongoing research and as many external citations we could find.